r/europe • u/TheRealMykola • Jan 25 '23 • 1 1 1 1 1

Little fish can overcome the greatest of odds with the right friends. Слава Україні. Political Cartoon

43.7k Upvotes

74% Upvoted

240

u/Loki11910 Jan 25 '23 •

Orcas teach their young that humans are not on their food list they have a generational memory, which is another proof just how sophisticated these animals are. We shouldn't keep them in captivity, in my opinion it's beyond cruel.

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u/yes_oui_si_ja Jan 25 '23

You probably know then that this "learning" has created some problems.

East Coast orcas and West Coast orcas eat different things although being the same species.

And if the population of their favourite food declines (like tuna on the west coast), they don't want to switch to something else even though it's plentiful (like seals).

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u/skywalkerze Romania Jan 25 '23

Eerily human.

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u/PonchoHung Jan 25 '23

What do you mean? Humans are historically pretty good with adapting to new food sources.

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u/skywalkerze Romania Jan 25 '23

My understanding is that they are already adapted biologically, genetically, to the other food. They just refuse to eat it because of their culture.

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u/PonchoHung Jan 25 '23

Human beings generally don't starve themselves because of cultural reasons. I'm sure it's happened, but it's not like a known phenomenon.

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u/skywalkerze Romania Jan 26 '23

Alright, they're nothing like humans. Not in any way, shape or form. No sir.

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u/Capybarasaregreat Jan 25 '23

They're probably referring to the slow switch to vegetarian/vegan diets.

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u/PonchoHung Jan 25 '23

Again not sure you're coming from a factual basis. Per capita meat consumption has gone up drastically in recent history.

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u/TheAccountICommentWi Jan 25 '23

Exactly, even though we all know that such a high meat diet is killing us (due to climate change).

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u/K_Kingfisher Jan 25 '23

No, we're not. Not like that at least.

Agriculture of any kind (both animals and plants) is only responsible for 11% of greenhouse gases emissions. Even commercial and residential areas are responsible for more, at 13%.

True, every bit helps, but you'd help more by walking or biking rather than driving, instead of reducing meat consumption. Still, why not both?

But then, going from there to claiming that livestock are the worst offenders, is a giant leap.

76% emissions are (on almost equal parts) due to industry, transportation, and production of electricity.

Source

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u/Docmcdonald Jan 25 '23

Damn those picky orcas, so spoiled.

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u/Loki11910 Jan 25 '23

I was actually not aware of this specific fact, but it doesn't surprise me either. They are truly magnificent animals. I hope that one day, with the help of AI, we can learn to understand their language and start communicating with them. They might have a lot to tell us, and we won't like everything they have to say, I fear. Humans should finally work hard on giving animals more rights. Orcas deserve our respect, and the "Killer Whale" image is just so far from the truth. I have seen perform a seal hunt on a YouTube video once. It's truly impressive that the level of coordination and strategy that they can apply is just incredible.

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u/keirawynn Jan 25 '23

Currently being grouped as one species doesn't mean much. Phylogeneticists regularly shuffle animals into different categories - for example, they're not entirely sure if the African bush and forest elephants should even be in the same genus anymore.

There's enough differences between the different orca subtypes that they might be either subspecies or heading in that direction.

Specialising in your niche is pretty much the key aspect of speciation - Darwin's Finches being a classic example of that. We just see the orcas as "thinking" about the problem, but all animals are "thinking" about how to get the food they need. And many predators teach their young how to hunt the prey in their range.

The problem is us, throwing the ecosystem out of balance too fast for species to adapt naturally.

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u/yes_oui_si_ja Jan 25 '23

Great addition!

I regularly hang around ecologists, so I have come to understand that the definition of species is rather rudimentary and dependent on context.

In the context of orcas, me and the guides on the whale safari boats were just expressing the frustration that preservation efforts are made harder by the fact that orca whales are less like racoons and more like pandas.

Of course, it has evidently been a good strategy, proven by them still being around.

To paraphrase Dawkins, it's hard to describe evolutionary processes without sounding as if there was intent involved.

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u/Grdosjek Jan 25 '23

I absolutely agree. They should not be kept in captivity.

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u/Pandering_Panda7879 Jan 25 '23

I would go even further and say no wild animal should be kept in captivity.

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u/Tullerull Norway Jan 25 '23

In principle, I agree with you. But thanks to us humans, keeping some species captive is the only way to prevent extinction.

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u/Pandering_Panda7879 Jan 25 '23

Which leads to a different, maybe a bit philosophical question: Is the survival of a species worth their captivity? Especially given that most of these species will never actually be released into the wild.

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u/concernedexpressions Europe Jan 25 '23

An emphatic yes, absolutely. Some species have a better experience in captivity. Dogs, for example. The rest, a few generations of sufferings are well worth the chance of reintroduction.

There are some exceptions, like Orcas, where the traditional concept of captivity is undeniably cruel. But human monitored barricaded bays, artificial lakes, etc. could be used if we ever find the need to make captive Orcas.

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u/Pandering_Panda7879 Jan 25 '23

An emphatic yes, absolutely. Some species have a better experience in captivity. Dogs, for example. The rest, a few generations of sufferings are well worth the chance of reintroduction.

Two points I want to make here. And I don't want to argue with you, so please take it personally.

I was talking about wild animals, as in "not domesticated". So guinea pigs, farm animals, cats, dogs, etc are excluded.

The track record of zoos releasing wild animals is not so great to say it mildly. First and foremost zoos priority is to make money to feed their animals. So keeping rare animals are obviously in their favour, compared to releasing them, because rare animals bring more cash. Second, from all the rare, endangered or even extinct species, only one has actually been successfully reintroduced to the wild again: the aurochs. Which means in the whole history of zoos, out of hundreds and thousands of species and millions, maybe billions of dollars of conservative efforts, only one species actually got released. Which is extremely sad.

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u/concernedexpressions Europe Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23

I do NOT support "for-profit" zoos. I don't even support the right to profit.

Most zoos I attend aren't like American zoos in the middle of nowhere, they're universities, they're national collections, they're research centres. They aren't for profit, not a single zoo I've attended in my adulthood has ever made a profit, because they're funded by the public for the public good. While only one species has been released, dozens of different species has had individuals released to replenish dwindling populations. Preventing extinction is worthwhile, no matter the cost to the individuals.

"Sad" shouldn't come into it. Extinction is sad. Suffering is sad. Tough luck, the world sucks. We shouldn't focus on what makes us feel good, but on what we can do as stewards of the planet.

Also dogs and wolves are the same species (by breeding). Domestication of wolves is not an arduous process, they're loyal pack animals that naturally work well with humans, and wolves can indeed thrive in captivity, especially if given lots of attention from well trained humans. Plus that opens the question as to whether domestication is a good thing. Not one I have an answer to.

The suffering of animals in the wild is unconscionable. Captivity isn't ideal, yes, but with some exceptions, captivity can mean BETTER quality of life.

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u/exterminans666 Jan 25 '23

Probably. We do not understand the impact of species completely. Imagine a biome collapsing because some overlooked species died/was eradicated. And with some captured specimen you could at least try to revive it. Like European wolves and bisons.

So my point is: we should have less pandas in every zoo and more insects and bugs.

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u/Phazon2000 Queensland Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 26 '23

Yes because they’ve got food, medical care and usually enough stimulation (especially nowadays) to keep them occupied during the day if they so require.

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u/panisch420 Jan 25 '23

ok but who should?

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u/WernerBernal Jan 25 '23

Agree, but at the same time we shouldn't release the ones we already have in captivity, i don't want Orcas to be mad at us

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u/thecowintheroom Jan 25 '23

freewilly

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u/Own_Fix_745 Jan 25 '23

Doubt that, at best they're afraid cause they have never seen a human

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u/Loki11910 Jan 25 '23

That is the thing they do not need to have seen one themselves as they can learn from others that saw them and considered them not fit for the Orca meal plan.

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u/Own_Fix_745 Jan 25 '23

No they only eat safe food sources, they don't learn if all the sources are safe, they just eat what they know 100% is. Humans are so rare to them that we are not reliable enough to be a food source

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u/Talbotus Jan 26 '23

Orcas are smart enough to know not to eat us and how to interact with us to keep us from killing them for thing that we've historically killed other whales for.

Orcas are more empathetic than we are. So are elephants. We like to think we have the best ethics and morals but these animals are smart and they treat others better. Even killing machines like Orcas.

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u/Talbotus Jan 26 '23

Orcas are smart enough to know not to eat us and how to interact with us to keep us from killing them for thing that we've historically killed other whales for.

Orcas are more empathetic than we are. So are elephants. We like to think we have the best ethics and morals but these animals are smart and they treat others better. Even killing machines like Orcas.